00:00.99 Gary Gray All set? 00:02.77 Melissa Guerrette Yep. 00:03.14 Gary Gray Awesome. All right. Welcome to Corridor Conversations, the podcast segment of NCTE's classroom corridors, sharing expertise and inspiration from elementary teachers. I'm your host, Gary R. Gray Jr. Today, we're talking with educator and NCTE classroom corridor member, Melissa Garrett. 00:20.22 Gary Gray And she resides in Maine, which is very, very close to my hometown, which we just talked about, Nova Scotia. Melissa, how are you? How are things? 00:29.97 Melissa Guerrette I'm good. um You know, things are an interesting combination between really relaxing relaxing and also busy just with the things of summer. 00:40.23 Gary Gray Mm hmm. 00:41.21 Melissa Guerrette But I'm great and I'm happy to talk to you. 00:43.18 Gary Gray That's awesome. And you're so funny because i we talked about this before we came on, just like how the idea of summer for educators and how we are constantly educating and working. 00:55.15 Gary Gray What are some things you've been doing this summer to relax and just like, you know, possibly take your mind off of the the education and school side of of everything? 01:07.36 Melissa Guerrette um Well, i have I have two young nieces who do a really great job of taking my mind off anything at any point. um So i always I always depend on them for that escape and tether me to my role outside of being a teacher. 01:21.40 Gary Gray the 01:27.35 Melissa Guerrette So I've spent some time with them. That's been really great. 01:29.63 Gary Gray fun and fun fun i think that's what teachers try to do for the most part i mean if you are relatively close to your family it is such a good time to just like reconnect because you're 01:30.48 Melissa Guerrette I've traveled to see family and friends. 01:43.92 Gary Gray Teachers are on such a time crunch all the time. We're constantly looking at the time because we need to go to bed a certain time. We need to be up a certain time. We're spending X amount of time in the classroom. So I'm just glad you are, you know, getting your bucket filled in different ways this summer. 01:58.99 Gary Gray um And I always say this, but I'm sending all the love your way because teachers need it during the summer as well. All right. 02:05.30 Melissa Guerrette Thank you. and it I think it's an important um it's important for us all to take some time to rest and um kind of recalibrate, find the balance between what we do in our day-to-day during the school year and um all those other things we love too. 02:14.65 Gary Gray Yeah, 02:20.33 Gary Gray yeah I know. I totally agree. Melissa, we had some of your amazing, lovely friends on um a few months ago. um I had the pleasure of talking to Melissa's fifth graders. And I believe there was four, was it four of them, three of them? 02:35.86 Melissa Guerrette There were three, three girls. 02:36.84 Gary Gray Three of them. And they did such a phenomenal job talking about belonging in the classroom and how that is stretched from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. I'm excited to talk to you about it even more. 02:50.23 Gary Gray um I want to first just talk a little bit about how do you get there? Like, what are some of the things you do specifically as a teacher to get them to be thinking about those things? Because they really did an excellent job talking about some of the things that you did they did in the classroom to feel like they belong and build that sense of community. 03:11.46 Melissa Guerrette ah Let's start with a small question, right? ah when i When I think back to, because certainly though it was a gift to be able to listen to them and to hear them reflect back to me the things that they took away from our gear together and what was really important um was just, it it was it was so cool. 03:32.90 Melissa Guerrette And I, of course, like could see all the smaller things and and each of the steps along the way of the year that had led to that conversation. um i found myself laughing about about how I had dominated conversation at the beginning of the year from their perspective, right? 03:49.36 Gary Gray Mm hmm. 03:49.76 Melissa Guerrette I was thinking about how in those first few weeks, they the students can be so timid and and uncertain about kind of what their place is especially older elementary students, I think there's a social element to that. 04:03.99 Melissa Guerrette And um so a lot of what I did was a lot of what I did was build opportunities for them to interact in meaningful ways. And the more that they interacted and the more that they shared small bits at a time, they gradually grew to be more comfortable. 04:20.92 Melissa Guerrette um I think not unlike you saw even in the evolution of the conversation you had with them. ah right There was a little bit of sort of reservation at the start and nervousness. 04:26.03 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 04:31.20 Melissa Guerrette And then by the end, I think they probably could have talked to you for another hour or two. think. i think Things I did at the beginning of the year um 04:45.03 Melissa Guerrette really came down to getting to know my students, for starters, finding out who they are and what makes them tick was was really important to me um because i want I wanted them to be able to feel that I knew who they were. 05:00.90 Melissa Guerrette oh that's always That's always my priority. And as I think was seen in the conversation, i also spent time sharing with them about myself and about some of the things that are important to me beyond the classroom. 05:17.59 Melissa Guerrette which definitely seems to have paid off ah by, by leading with that vulnerability in that example, then i hope that meant that I opened up a space where they could be real and authentic with me too. 05:33.61 Melissa Guerrette um 05:34.03 Gary Gray I love that. ah love that. And I always talk about the idea around teacher self-reflection. I love that you started with that. talking You talked a little bit about how, like, you felt like you were, like, dominating. And it's, you know, teachers have a sense of, like, pride in them that, like, I think it takes, ah personally, I feel like, for me at least, I can only speak for myself, it took me a while to understand, like, 05:58.73 Gary Gray that type of reflection is number one, hard to do. And it's not like anything against like your teaching. It doesn't make you a bad teacher, right? 06:06.69 Melissa Guerrette you No, and I think i think their you know that their candid conversation about it really had me pause and recognize that even though I think I do an okay job, have space for their voices, um that there are there are still times probably where I could do more. 06:07.13 Gary Gray ah 06:15.81 Gary Gray even 06:22.33 Melissa Guerrette um 06:22.27 Gary Gray Sure. 06:22.94 Melissa Guerrette It might cause me to be uncomfortable with but with what's uncertain, but I don't think it's altogether a terrible thing. 06:23.25 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 06:27.27 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. No, it's definitely not. And you can hear in their voices just the amazing work that's happening in that classroom and like the way they were able to share specific moments, activities, books that like resonated with them. 06:42.46 Gary Gray Like that is where I like I got the goosebumps. And I was like, yeah, like number one, they love her, which is you. And number two, honestly, like they feel so safe in your classroom. 06:49.30 Melissa Guerrette Thank you. 06:54.62 Gary Gray So safe. because they wouldn't have have been able to like articulate what it feels like to be in a community if that wasn't happening. It's just not possible, right? But I think they did such a good job of that. and it is because of the experiences that you were giving them in in the classroom. 07:10.90 Gary Gray I wanna talk a little bit about, they talk they talked a little bit about mentor texts in regards to, um i think some picture books, also like, I think maybe a novel as well. I wanna talk a little bit about those And about where did some of these ideas come from? And we talked about this a little bit early on as well in regards to education educator texts, et cetera. 07:32.02 Gary Gray Obviously, years of experience as well. So can we talk a little bit about that? 07:36.22 Melissa Guerrette Yeah, I can definitely talk about that on both fronts. um i i was really curious to see what texts they were going to name when you asked me about that, because honestly, I flood my students with books. 07:49.43 Melissa Guerrette And ah that's been a real area of growth for me over, i don't know, the last several years. But to be really, ah really careful in my curation of the texts that I share with my students so that um everything everything is done with purpose. 08:06.82 Melissa Guerrette I can pick any book that has to do with back to school, but I'd rather pick one that's going to talk about back to school and also open doors about belonging, right? Or about... 08:15.49 Gary Gray Yeah. 08:16.55 Melissa Guerrette um accepting differences or overcoming fears together. 08:18.73 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 08:21.72 Melissa Guerrette ah So I tried and i tried it really hard to um bring representative stories to my students. um And that that while we have lots of conversations, lots of rich conversations about the characters in those books, it also there's something to be said about being able to talk about characters that feel distant at the same time as they feel close. 08:45.99 Melissa Guerrette So I think students sometimes have an easier time talking about the characters in a book. like Adrian in Adrian Simcox does not have a horse, um they have an easier time talking about Adrian than maybe they do readily talking about their own shortcomings or times that they have been jealous or misunderstood someone. 09:03.96 Gary Gray the 09:05.22 Melissa Guerrette so So, you know, they they may think that they're talking about that at a distance, but in time, it all seems to come around that they recognize themselves in those texts as well. 09:05.10 Gary Gray who 09:14.47 Gary Gray I love that. I love that. And then what about some of the educator texts that kind of inspired you along the way? Because and educat educators, I think for me, i know that like it it has taken me and it's still taking me, you know, some time to like put all of these amazing educators that have shared activities or their knowledge through books, through podcasts, through articles to find like my groove or my things that I feel helped me in the classroom. What are some things that have inspired you? 09:47.44 Melissa Guerrette Yeah, there are definitely, I mean, any on any given day, right, I recognize that what I'm doing in the walls of my classroom are impact are like or like have the fingerprints of so many other greats who I've had the chance to learn from or learn alongside. 10:01.62 Melissa Guerrette ah Certainly, Donalyn Miller's work has been highly influential in my building a reading community. 10:07.62 Gary Gray is amazing. 10:08.50 Melissa Guerrette classroom and making sure that students have choice and in what they're doing. i the My first few weeks of school, especially in terms of social emotional learning, lean really heavily on the work of Sara K. 10:22.18 Melissa Guerrette Ahmed in her book, Upstanders and Being the Change. 10:23.22 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 10:25.78 Melissa Guerrette and while ah While those maybe were geared toward more of a middle school audience, I've found it to be not difficult at all to take that and adapt it to my elementary classroom. 10:36.07 Gary Gray Yeah. 10:37.49 Melissa Guerrette um And so I might change the language a little bit and I might change the delivery mildly, but the idea of talking about roles that we play in society and the roles we play in our classrooms for example, is something that works in at the start of my year every year. 10:51.51 Melissa Guerrette And really, it also gives me great footing to go forward and talk about characters and their motives and what happens with them in stories, in and language arts, and also in social studies, oh as we look at historical happenings. 10:58.91 Gary Gray who 11:02.95 Gary Gray yeah 11:06.16 Melissa Guerrette um And then on the writing side of things, you know, i i think that a lot of where I, a lot of what has built my beginning of the year writing has been my own writing experiences myself. 11:19.98 Gary Gray I 11:20.31 Melissa Guerrette And so by playing and dabbling in writing as a teacher writer, I've started to recognize some of the disconnect between traditional writing workshops and what writers actually do. 11:33.40 Melissa Guerrette And so that's where that place of trying to honor students writing identities really comes from. 11:38.28 Gary Gray love that. Shout out to Sarah. Sarah's actually a good friend of mine in I think as an elementary teacher as well, I think it's so interesting me because often, not oftentimes, I think in the beginning when first started teaching, I would look, I wouldn't look at middle school, even high school books in regards to like education to books. I'd be like, oh, like what would I do? i think a good thing for me that helped me, like my wife is also an educator. She teaches middle school. 12:00.94 Gary Gray So she introduced me to a lot of middle school books that were for middle school language arts. 12:03.90 Melissa Guerrette Mm-hmm. 12:06.98 Gary Gray And I was like, oh yeah, I could totally like, change this and revise this so it is able, so my like third graders, my second graders are able to like resonate and connect with this. Like it is very easy to do. And I think she does a great job of that in her books as well. 12:24.30 Gary Gray We, Donna Miller as well, like I've been reading and looking at things from her for such a long time. Just such a powerful voice in education. Like I think the stuff that she believes in regards to reading is just like, 12:37.89 Melissa Guerrette Okay. 12:39.78 Gary Gray so powerful. And the way she's able to seamlessly make it accessible, it's like, it's not, she's not, it's it's not difficult. She doesn't make anything too difficult. 12:50.43 Gary Gray The language and the narrative in all of her books are very accessible. um I think those are two amazing people um to to lean on when it comes to literacy and what it should look like to build community in your classroom around literacy. So I'm so happy to hear their voices and I'm not surprised that you are using using them um to build those that sense of belonging in your classroom. 13:13.20 Gary Gray um I wanna talk a little bit about, um this isn't a question we wrote down, and but I'm thinking about what you wrote and you talk a little bit about um routines. So like what routines or moments could you add to like your week or your term that centers student voice. 13:33.18 Gary Gray And this is like specific things. And obviously those can be pulled from your experiences or they could be pulled from some of the the individuals that we just talked about. But I'm wondering what are some specific things that you could share with us that teachers could use like right away? 13:48.71 Melissa Guerrette That's a great question. And the um it's it's definitely something i found myself thinking about after we had talked because and and after I had gone back and listened to the student podcast also to be thankful because there just was such, um it was such a gift to me to be able to hear them and then spend time thinking about what strengths there had been my instruction and where maybe there are places to continue building. 13:59.89 Gary Gray Hmm. 14:18.54 Melissa Guerrette And so I thought about um how, like, it was great that I got that opportunity through this podcast plan, but I was thinking about how i could do that without such a formal structure in place too. 14:25.95 Gary Gray who 14:32.64 Melissa Guerrette um One of the things that I have tried to do and I think needs some refining um maybe in order to help give students better direction and examples of what I might be looking for um is I've asked students to share a best part of their week. 14:53.85 Gary Gray Hmm. 14:54.90 Melissa Guerrette And so because I haven't necessarily taken the time to be disciplined about showing them what makes a great response and what um would help their response grow stronger in order for it to be useful for me and for their families. 15:10.01 Melissa Guerrette Because when I originally started this practice, it was it was a way of sharing with families once a week, one highlight that students had from what happened in the classroom together. 15:19.86 Gary Gray Hmm. 15:20.35 Melissa Guerrette But I know that um with what other things compete for time, and I haven't taken enough time to help shape that for my students. 15:26.93 Gary Gray course. 15:29.43 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 15:30.29 Melissa Guerrette um then the the power of that reflection, right, doesn't come through as well. So thinking about going into this year, i want to i want to think about how to do that better and be more clear with students about it. 15:35.91 Gary Gray who 15:43.00 Melissa Guerrette um I find that I periodically will, if I'm noticing, for example, that there seems to be some kind of conflict or that moods seem to be off, you know, I'm trying to be perceptive of that always. 15:54.95 Melissa Guerrette And usually ah I think I can do an okay job of that because I've taken the time to get to know my kids. ah 16:00.33 Gary Gray I love 16:00.92 Melissa Guerrette But one of the things I'll do sometimes is ask them to write a Dear Miss Grette letter. And I'll do that in a way that I start them off with some sentence stems about some of the things that I want to know. ah For example, it might be something, you know, ah right now I'm feeling blank because, um but it might also be something I wish you knew 16:23.54 Gary Gray o i love that. 16:24.25 Melissa Guerrette One thing I would ask me is, question I have for you is, because there's a power between between teachers and students. 16:36.05 Melissa Guerrette Also, whether we want there to be or not, by virtue of the fact that we're the adults, right? 16:37.35 Gary Gray Yeah. oh 16:40.75 Melissa Guerrette And we're the older um the older people in the room. Like, is students don't always feel like they can speak up and ah and and share those things. 16:51.13 Melissa Guerrette um And of course, there are kids who are willing to, and there are other kids who are going to be um, more, more reserved, more to themselves and are' going to wait for that sort of invitation. 17:01.47 Melissa Guerrette And I don't want the time to go by that I haven't noticed. 17:01.99 Gary Gray the 17:04.52 Gary Gray yeah 17:04.89 Melissa Guerrette So that's, that's something else that I've, I have done and certainly feel like I should continue to do. 17:11.73 Gary Gray the 17:12.11 Melissa Guerrette um but I, 17:16.13 Melissa Guerrette i want I want to figure out also, though, how to let my students have conversation about strengths and areas that are not working and what needs improvement without sort of the me listening in 17:26.14 Gary Gray you 17:30.67 Gary Gray Yeah. 17:31.28 Melissa Guerrette That's something I'm still brainstorming about. 17:33.59 Gary Gray I love it. It's so funny because As they're talking, I'm like looking at my next question. was like, oh, she just answered that. Oh, she just answered that as well. but it's so funny because I had the question. ah Number one, I love the the reflection tools that you use because they can be used throughout the year. Having them write a letter or a note to you can be so powerful. Just like open-ended. 17:55.19 Gary Gray How are you feeling in this time, in this place? Such a great way to get genuine feedback that is not performative at all, which I really, really love. And then the other question that I had was, the first question I had was like, how do you make sure students' feedback feels genuine and not performative? And I think you just answered that. 18:12.92 Gary Gray Right? And then the other question was, how can we shift from compliance to community in our classroom to our community norms? And I think you answered that as well. um But if you want to, you can add on. But I feel like you answered that one as well. 18:26.75 Melissa Guerrette Well, I definitely think that's, I think they're, yes, I think you're right. I think part of what, part of those two exercises really touch upon those questions that you have about um community over compliance. 18:38.02 Melissa Guerrette And um i think, the The thing is that kids know when someone is real and when someone is like when they can feel our hearts, I think really ultimately is what it comes down to. 18:51.88 Gary Gray 100%, yep. 18:52.51 Melissa Guerrette And, um and so that's why in in any way that I want to incorporate reflection into my classroom, like anything else, i want to do it in a way that feels authentic and, 19:06.07 Melissa Guerrette and intentional, and I don't want it to just be an activity that I'm doing to say I'm engaging students in reflection. 19:12.12 Gary Gray Yep, but I agree. I think that the idea of reflection is I mean, yes, I do believe that you can over reflect. I do think that is a thing. 19:21.48 Melissa Guerrette Agreed. 19:22.17 Gary Gray 100% agree. But I do think when reflection in the form of way the way that you're doing it, when it's so intentional, I love open-ended reflection as well. 19:32.64 Gary Gray um It can really just make your classroom feel so much more organic. And it allows students, and then like being able to respond or go to the kids and say like, hey, I noticed that this is what you shared with me. 19:44.77 Gary Gray Like, that helps them feel like they've been, they're being seen and listened to because sometimes we forget and we just have them reflect to reflect and we don't look at them, right? 19:50.29 Melissa Guerrette and i 19:54.89 Gary Gray So I think that's so powerful. 19:55.74 Melissa Guerrette Right. And I wonder, you know, for for many of our students, um I wonder for how many it is new territory to you ah feel like an adult is really inviting what they have to say and it's listening and maybe even going to make changes based on the feedback that they've offered. 20:05.04 Gary Gray Mm. 20:08.92 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 20:15.41 Gary Gray Yeah, it's so funny. It's like, I think I always make it a goal of mine to to remind the students that like, we are human. 20:25.60 Gary Gray And I always talk about like education and teacher work is like human work. 20:27.09 Melissa Guerrette So 20:31.04 Gary Gray And I got that from Patrick Harris. And he talks a lot about how like, we are still human. and so one of the things I always try to do is like, if I feel like I've done something, not necessarily to a kid or to the class or whatever that I feel deserves like an apology or like some explanation, I always try to make it a point to show them that like, and it's so funny because I, I'm teaching elementary, like the little ones to see their reaction when you're like, you apologize. They're like, I'm so sorry. They're like, they're like, there's at the beginning, they're very thrown off, like very, very thrown off because 21:04.30 Gary Gray you know, up an apology, you know, and the real sincere apology is in comparison to just saying like, I'm sorry, then like moving on. 21:11.25 Melissa Guerrette You have. 21:11.11 Gary Gray Like when you go into it and the kids hear you, it's like, it changes your whole dynamics in the classroom because now you have kids coming to you saying like, you know, when you didn't do this or like, I don't really want it. Like they're now being more open and honest about how they're feeling about being in the classroom around the work that they're doing in the classroom. And that's when that community of like following the community norms, 21:34.45 Gary Gray Building the sense of belonging becomes to be so organic. And it makes it easier, i think, for a teacher as well. 21:40.72 Melissa Guerrette Right. And and even the you know the learning curve that exists there for teachers also, I think for myself included, like to be able to be brave enough to open yourself up to that feedback that's going to give you, knowing that sometimes you might not want to hear it. 21:49.77 Gary Gray o 21:53.86 Gary Gray Of course. but Right? Especially, I can only, like, I know this based off working with, like, high school kids, middle school kids through sports. specifically, like when you ask them for feedback, like you can tell the ones who are, who have had experience with feedback to adults that they don't want to share. 22:14.82 Gary Gray Like I, that I know they they're like, I know what this is. Like I may get in trouble. You may not like me. Let's just not even go there versus the kids that feel like they have a connection. 22:22.07 Melissa Guerrette Yeah. 22:24.24 Gary Gray They understand where you're coming from and they actually will share something with you that like will help you as an educator be a little bit better at what you do, which is, The goal right is to to continue to grow as an educator. 22:34.77 Melissa Guerrette yeah and i And I think actually that that kind of takes me back to the first question that you asked about, like, what are the things that you do? Because all of that takes time. 22:45.50 Melissa Guerrette That's really the bottom line is nothing about the success of that conversation would have happened without having many, many experiences together um that that allowed the students to feel like they could truly share with you um what happened in our classrooms. 22:45.84 Gary Gray who 23:00.55 Gary Gray Exactly. Exactly. And I think that leads to my last question. It's like, what advice would you give? I guess this is two things. And and then I guess they could go together as well. But I do think a new brand new teacher going into the classroom, advice for a brand new teacher can be different from a teacher that has already had experience, but obviously they can go together. But the question is, what advice would you give a new teacher or returning teacher going into the school year um next year? So what advice would you give them besides you know, going to the bathroom, making sure they eat lunch, um all those types of things. 23:37.14 Melissa Guerrette I'm having a hard time deciding which to what pick. Um, but so I think my students gave really great responses to this question, by the way. 23:44.76 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 23:45.38 Melissa Guerrette and so I'm not going to repeat the things they said, cause I think they're spot on, but I also think that I might remind new teachers or early career teachers, um, 24:02.05 Melissa Guerrette to stick with something long enough to let it take. 24:07.22 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 24:07.43 Melissa Guerrette I think sometimes we, in in an effort to wanna feel like we're getting it right and we're doing it well, um we expect there to be a response from the students or we wanna see it working quickly. 24:20.97 Melissa Guerrette And sometimes we don't stick with um whatever the the management strategy is or the, i mean, any content strategy. 24:20.97 Gary Gray the 24:31.41 Melissa Guerrette um long enough for students to figure out how to navigate it and gain confidence. And then we change things up on them. And so I think that might be my suggestion. 24:39.58 Gary Gray Yep. 24:42.90 Gary Gray I love that. I think it's so important to, to lean into that as much as possible. um i think every teacher for the most part, I mean, I know I do remembers the first time you stepped into a classroom and how, you know, your mind is racing and you're trying to figure out all these things. And no matter how much help you get, this is for me specifically, it doesn't, it doesn't put you in the classroom. 25:07.68 Gary Gray Like it doesn't, like you can get as much advice as you want to but you need to experience it and like give yourself like so much forgiveness for like the stuff that you just don't know that will come with like repetition and conversations and all those types of things. 25:16.91 Melissa Guerrette hu 25:21.57 Gary Gray So I do think that's so important and leaning into what you just said, like that idea of reflecting and allowing yourself to reflect. 25:27.33 Melissa Guerrette And i think and so I think that's going to let me sneak in the second, which is right which is um to be real and to be who you are and not try to be the teacher down the hall or the teacher next door. 25:32.43 Gary Gray Yeah. Yeah. 25:41.44 Melissa Guerrette I think there's a real sense of wanting to feel like students 25:41.40 Gary Gray Yeah. 25:46.41 Melissa Guerrette Also like us, right, um ah get some kind of positive feedback from students in that way. 25:48.37 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 25:52.40 Melissa Guerrette oh But ultimately, my experience has been that when I am my most real self, and I share that with the students, they share who they are with me too. And we up with a really positive year. 26:02.54 Gary Gray Mm-hmm. 26:05.17 Gary Gray And I think you said at the beginning, they know. but They will know if you blowing smoke or you are the real teacher who you feel like you you should be in front of those kids. Melissa, I want to thank you for this amazing conversation. 26:20.17 Gary Gray um if you haven't checked out the Kids Conversation, please do so. I think it is so powerful. um For those of you going into the new school year, um as a new teacher, as a returning teacher, I'm sending all the love your way. 26:33.68 Gary Gray um Melissa, thank you so much. 26:36.50 Melissa Guerrette Thank you. 26:37.83 Gary Gray Yay. How do you feel? Do you feel like we need to cover any more? do you feel like there's any other questions we could think about? i mean, I feel like we did a lot. and 26:47.57 Melissa Guerrette i No, let's not add anything else. um 26:50.45 Gary Gray Okay. 26:51.41 Melissa Guerrette we We did do. 26:52.25 Gary Gray ah